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User talk:Hhhippo/BuildArchive/R/Rt Oath Spirit Spam
Rate-a-build Please test and vote on builds. Testing is encouraged but not required. Favored: #Has potential. Add a few variants, and this could be an interesting change of metagame. I must point out, however, that this build is crippled if someone blinds you/blocks, etc. Mazza558 19:02, 2 March 2007 (CST) #:Hmm...Sight Beyond Sight perhaps? Caramel Ni 22:09, 2 March 2007 (CST) #I'll favor it, but it still needs a few changes that can be very easily implmented.--Nog64Talk 23:44, 2 March 2007 (CST) #I'd drop Mend Body and Soul for something different. Cheap, spammable spirts though... Pretty good. [[User:Solus| Solus]] 19px 23:25, 3 March 2007 (CST) #Guys should explain below why. Because obviously not being interrupted by rangers is a bad idea? Having less energy issues as well? And having better recharge? Don't tell me spawning power is going to matter. --Silk Weaker 10:40, 4 March 2007 (CST) #: Thanks silk =) Caramel Ni 12:41, 4 March 2007 (CST) #I like the defensive variant. -X H K #I am not a huge fan of the offensive variant, but I went out and tried the defensive one in PvE and it worked pretty well. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) #This build pwns in RA. I got many glad points off of it. Unfavored:'' #Worthless.204.52.179.199 16:11, 1 March 2007 (CST) #I'm with the guy above. A rt does a better job. -X H K #The Ritual Lord/Boon of Creation combo is much better for spamming spirits. On top of faster recharge and energy management (which Oath Shot/Expertise are trying to do here), a primary Ritualist also gets tougher spirits with Spawning Power and the capability to boost attributes beyond 12; with this build, Union and Shelter will only last a few seconds at best. (I ran a build very similar to this for a while, until I realized that a primary Rit outperforms a Ranger when it comes to spirit spam.) 404notfound 19:09, 5 March 2007 (CST) #Use a Ritualist. Spawning Power > This. — [[User:Rapta|'''Rapta]] 19px (talk| ) 12:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT) # Without spawning, Spirits like Union + Displacement quickly die off all too fast. Isis In De Nile Discussion A bit stubby, so adding a cleanup tag. The build looks alright, though.--Nog64Talk 21:24, 26 February 2007 (CST) huzzah...Caramel Ni 21:30, 26 February 2007 (CST) I would make two variants. One that uses defernsive spirits (i.e. Shadowsong, Displacement, Shelter, and Union or something) and the other that uses offensive spirits rather than a build with two defensive spirits and two offensive spirits. As it stands I would say that the build is a little too unfocused. Otherwise though, the concept looks solid. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) :Aside from that, using it with Pain just isn't worthwhile at all. A thirty second recharge is only 5 seconds less than the recharge of oath shot. The build isn't worthwhile if you could do a better job with Ritual Lord as your elite. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) Isn't it also the case that you can only have one of each spirit active at any one time? If you keep spamming them you just keep killing off the previous one. --BeeD 22:51, 26 February 2007 (CST) :If the spirits are seperated far enough from each other you can have multiple spirits of the same kind active. --Jill Bioskop X 22:54, 26 February 2007 (CST) Anguish w/ no hexes?--Nog64Talk 23:08, 26 February 2007 (CST) Anguish needs Painful Bond. Also, for AB, you don't need a rez, and for RA/TA you should be using Rez Sig. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) Needs some serious skill changes. I also can't really see yet how this compares to a Ritualist. Ok, you use extremely high-cost spirits with low duration, which benefit the most from Oath and Expertise, but... i'll give it a shot on my ranger, see how it goes NightAngel 08:54, 27 February 2007 (CST) Can Flesh of my flesh to generic resurrect, as stated above. That would solve a lot of problem.--Nog64Talk 16:34, 27 February 2007 (CST) What spirits do you guys suggest then?!?!?! I'm trying to make an offensive and then a defensive as a variant as listed above...TIPS PLEASE Caramel Ni 16:45, 27 February 2007 (CST) :*Shift Rezes as I stated above. :*For the offensive, maybe switch resto for channeling and bring Bloodsong and Fury. Defensive one is alright, IMHO.--Nog64Talk 17:28, 27 February 2007 (CST) alright, 1 minute then =p Caramel Ni 19:50, 27 February 2007 (CST) Recovery would be a bit nicer for PvE instead of soothing, as there are not that many warriors there compared to all the other professions the enemies use Wyvern 21:33, 27 February 2007 (CST) Worthless? how is it worthless? it can spam better than RT spammers!Caramel Ni 16:49, 1 March 2007 (CST) It seems viable, and I'll work on clean-up. Nhnowell 19:21, 1 March 2007 (CST) Done. Nhnowell 19:31, 1 March 2007 (CST) Thanks a bunch m8. ;-) I'll remove the tag now. Caramel Ni 21:49, 1 March 2007 (CST) Channeling What for? Take it out. -Silk Weaker 22:26, 2 March 2007 (CST) >.<...if you read the above statements, some one told me to put channeling in, now someone else is telling me to take it out... Caramel Ni 22:31, 2 March 2007 (CST) :They are wrong. Blood Song and Anguish is nowhere near Union + Dissonance + Pain + Shadowsong + Displacement at max attribs. How does anyone plan on having enough energy with lower expertise and a 15 energy hex? It's also nice to have a heal. Generous was Tsungrai could work, and if you use it with higher restoration, you can have a hard rez too.--Silk Weaker 03:10, 3 March 2007 (CST) better? >.Defiant Elements]] (talk ~ ) Revert Someone needs to revert this, because an anon changed it a bunch--Nog64Talk 17:37, 6 March 2007 (CST) :Reverted back to the last edit before the anon messed with it. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) ::It was me. I've re-reverted it because you chaned the other notes as well, please edite the skill an attributes specifically instead. Also, lower expertise, not communing. Can you repond to the notes? Thank you. --Silk Weaker Accusation of Vandalism Uh...why? --Silk Weaker. :Because you heavily changed the build for the worse, maybe? :/--Nog64Talk 18:23, 6 March 2007 (CST) ::Okay, I edited it to make it a bit more clear. ::No. Worse is entirely subjective, and I'm not sure if your opinion is exactly superior than mine even if we didn't work on a equality policy, not to mention that a merge has been suggested by other users above. Note also that in general, the wiki build section advocates a) removal of optional slots for "most approriate" choices, b) a single bar if possible. ::Recovery has been placed in the variation because it uses a lower attribute, and is potentilaly useless depending on the groups you're facing, whereas shadowsong and Dissonance is useful almost everywhere. Interrupt help groups both defensively and offensively. Shelter is great, but use is also dependant on situation (PvEwise). ::Lowering communing to 10 is uncessary, seeing as the change of expertise from 15 to 13 does not matter too much in practice. ::I actually edited it from the previous state to now quite a lot, and have been using it for quite a while, as you seem to assert that my experience with it is less valuble. In any case, it would be nice to discuss changes on talk page before "reverting vandalisms" or making changes. ::Lastly, does your response imply that you are in fact accusing me of vandalism? I would take that up to the admin if that's what you want. I have explained my edits on every turn, and I could do so again. --Silk Weaker ::::Take it up with an admin, if you so desire. But I am not the ONLY one, as you so claim, to view the changes as worse. Myself, the author, and several voters who voted on account of the defesnsive version, who I believe have pretty important opinions on this particualr page, view this change as detrimental to the build. To say that your opion is higher that these people would be you're fault.--Nog64Talk 18:32, 6 March 2007 (CST) :::::If the Author of the build wants the defensive variant to remain and multiple voters have voted in particular for it, then it should be allowed to stay in, at the very least stop editing that part out. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) ::::::Well I would say it's more the wiki's desire we should give leeway to, not the authour's (although in this case they're the same), and remember Defiant, GW:1RV.--Nog64Talk 18:37, 6 March 2007 (CST) I have inserted explainations on why Shelter and Recovery should be optional as opposed to primary-- because their effects are situational. Care to explain otherwise? More importantly, it is you who call my edits vandalism, I in fact said that we should "work on a equality policy", and that a supposedly anon. opinion should be equally considered as a named one. So, actually, it is not me who's "pulling rank", or whatever you call it.--Silk Weaker :It should be. However, 3 > 1. That is, two voters + the author are in favor of the defensive variant. One person is not. This is basic mathematics. And, since wiki is all based on consensus, I will say it again, 3 > 1. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) Alright, I looked at Wikipedia's definition of vandilism ("Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism") and I apologize for calling it vandilism. However, I still believe that the consensus outweighs the opinions of one editor. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) :I don't require it, but I found the attack quite insulting, an apology was nice, it's fine. I edited this earlier than you, I think? So it is you changing my edits, not the other way around. I agree that consensus is above personal opinion, which is why I use arguments to justify my preferences. :Shadowsong stops melee attacking spirits, displacement does not. A Melee hammer/scythe with high base damage will very quickly destroy all spirits (low armor) if not blind. Shadowsong is essential defensively speaking. :Dissonance will stop spells such as Savanha Heat, Tenai's Heat, etc etc etc, other continuouse AoE spells which would no doubt clean spirits quickly. Lstrike, other armor based damage in general are extremely effetive in killing spirits due to armor. Moreover, these two spirits are more versatile as they can be used both offensively and defensively. :Shelter can be cleared quickly, and quite useless in some areas in PvE, and generally inferior to prot spirit in PvP with the exception of spike builds such as in HA. :Recovery in PvE depends on type of opponents, same with PvP, and as such could be completely useless against half or even more than half the teams, as the most common condition use is deepwound for spikes, which doens't even matter, and conditions in general are usually removed faster than their intended durations with the presense of a healer anyway (daze/blind/cripple). :Arguments against these statements please?--Silk Weaker ::Well, first and foremost, this is mainly a PvE build. If CAN be use for the listed areas, but is most likely recommended for this use. Second, to be a bit tautologesque, Shadowsong and Dissonace are about as optional as Recovery and Shelter. I have no clue as to how Shadowsong is useful to an area full of spell casters (which exist in many parts of the game), or how Dissonace is that useful against Tusked Hunters. So, your argument can be easily turned back on you. Finally, there are in fact many parts of the game where I recall a condition being on me and/or taking more than 10% of my health in damage. If the damage output of a party is suffcient but maybe a party is running only one human monk with a hench, using the defensive variant will be a very nice supplement to the party.--Nog64Talk 18:52, 6 March 2007 (CST) :::Fair enough point, and surely enough, adjusting skillbars according to situations would be wise. However, even aginst spell casters, shadowsong is effective at least for damage. Recovery is not always effective enough to warrant its use over other spirits, in most areas in fact. In some cases, rotting flesh makes it useful (though I'd rather have a tained flesh MM in that case), but mostly having shadow song or dissonance would be better. On a GENERAL sense, the chances of my two choices being effective is higher. In my opinion, of course. It is listed in use under RA and TA, as well, in in those situations, dissonance and shadowsong are no doubt better, as they would save from sin spikes that are all the craze lately, as well as nuke spells and such. :::Having both also makes sure that it's effective in most situations (thusly, best for RA, best for PvE if you don't want to think, good for TA). For example, you say tusk hunters make dissonance useless. Well, dissonance still does a fair bit of damage, and shadow song would be extremely usesful there, more so than shelter. In the case of spellcasters, shelter would die so quickly (aoe triggering on multiple party members) that dissonance would be more effective. I do believe that there are usually at least some amount of physicals, paragons, rangers, war/sins, wanding, or at leasst it could cause their healers, if they have any, to cover conditions such as daze/cripple, whatever. This applies to PvP too. As such, as a general build to bring everywhere and to be modified, I would rather have this as a primary, as it would do well in most situations. Furthermore, to have a wholly defensive yet non-heal build in a 4 man group, in RA for example, is a bad idea. If you get a monk, which is a GOOD thing, chances are your team won't have enough damage, and dissonance does end matches much quicker with lucky hits on rez sigs, happens quite a lot, actually. In locations such as DoA, I wouldn't really use a spirit spammer. It is my experience that they have such high damage that it's preferable to bring a ranger interrupter instead of a spirit spammer, and mobility/skills as opposed to straight pressure are more effective there. But that's me. Again, in general, I far prefer this. Do not overlook the PvP side to this. --Silk Weaker ::::Also, recovery is apparantly bugged, right now, so it would not be a wise choice. --Silk Weaker Lol, this build is causing many problems. Caramel Ni 07:50, 12 March 2007 (CDT) confused OK so it says use union if in AB... but union is already on the bar... no point in an optional slot if nothing is listed.-- [[User:Thelordofblah|'Thelordofblah']] 23:42, 12 March 2007 (CDT) Fixed it More Variants Shelter, Union, and Displacement are a must, Oath Shot for the recharge, Whirling for a defense stance, but what is a really good addition, is Serpent's Quickness, as it helps the recharge of Oath, and Oath counters the 45 sec recharge on Serpent's, and it also helps alot if Oath misses! Slvrwolf 07:02, 23 March 2007 (CDT)